Sin City...Warning, images may offend some viewers

[ghost]

Took a drive through inner Sydney today. Redfern, Surry Hills & Kings X. A couple of these are shot through the window in a moving car so please excuse the quality. It's the content I was after. BTW, labels are now gone.

[nito]

The shots proves how sad life can be. I feel sorry for those workers.

[big pix]

all due respect..........pix's from a moving car do not say what people do or not do, unless you get out and have a chat and ask............ do not presume with a shot from a window of a moving car and a comment, that you can pick what people do, or are doing........ I do not like this sort of photography as it just does not show what is realy going on, but how someone else see's life on a quick drive through.....

[Raskill]

I don't mind the pics, and I think that some styles of photography are meant to challange or make us feel uncomfortable.

I like the one you titled 'junkie' although I'd be more willing to bet it's a mental health issue and that he lives at 'Matthew Talbot Hostel' in Surrey Hills as he's a bit old to be a junkie (he'd be dead by now if he was). Anywhooo, it portrays a loniliness, with the old woman ignoring him and hurrying by.

I like the one 'worker and pimp' also. I'd be willing to bet your title is probably on the money also. The look on the 'workers' face is boredom and looking into the distance 'pondering'. I don't know if you noticed but the 'pimp' is watching you, probably thinking you're up to no good

The other 'worker' shot is to far away and really doesn't portray anything to me.

Nice though. I know what big pix is saying about it not really being someones life and just a drive through, but how often do we stop and really pay attention anyway. We just get a fleeting glimpse to form an opinion.

[big pix]

I don't mind the pics, and I think that some styles of photography are meant to challange or make us feel uncomfortable.

I like the one you titled 'junkie' although I'd be more willing to bet it's a mental health issue and that he lives at 'Matthew Talbot Hostel' in Surrey Hills as he's a bit old to be a junkie (he'd be dead by now if he was). Anywhooo, it portrays a loniliness, with the old woman ignoring him and hurrying by.

But are you sure or just guessing...... ask the people in the pix......

I like the one 'worker and pimp' also. I'd be willing to bet your title is probably on the money also. The look on the 'workers' face is boredom and looking into the distance 'pondering'. I don't know if you noticed but the 'pimp' is watching you, probably thinking you're up to no good

just guessing again........

The other 'worker' shot is to far away and really doesn't portray anything to me.

just someone in the street

Nice though. I know what big pix is saying about it not really being someone's life and just a drive through, but how often do we stop and really pay attention anyway. We just get a fleeting glimpse to form an opinion.

which could be quite wrong.......... I do not question the quality of said images but the comments that came with them, but with out research they have been presented without proof or proper reason......

[redline]

i dunno about labeling these ppl based purely on their appearances is fair towards the subject. maybe we should start labelling ppl with ps cameras as photogs?

[mic]

Pimp & Worker is my Fav,

Keep up the street beat Ghost.

Mic.

[big pix]

This is an open forum....... to post pix's with comments which could be very wrong, without checking the facts, about people you do not know anything about.............do I need to say any more............

[mic]

bp,

So don't you think it could be a Pimp & Worker ?

[jethro]

Bg Pix, Life is a challenge. These images present challenge. Dont you think?

Photography is a challenge, look at photograpy through the eye of the photographer. Isnt that a challenge.

I see no problem wiyh these images, this is life in the fast lane as we know it.
True or false?

Jethro

[big pix]

bp,

So don't you think it could be a Pimp & Worker ?

If I was to post a pix and presume I could be wrong, as this pix could also be very wrong as we have no proof, just a comment from someone driving through an area, with just a wild guess and looking for a label for a pix without research..........

[Onyx]

I admire your guts taking these shots ghost. My neighbourhood's perhaps just as filled with 'junkies' and I certainly wouldn't pull out even a camera phone near them for fear of getting a hiding.

[jethro]

I think you miss the point BPix
Jethro

[big pix]

[quote="jethro"]I think you miss the point BPix
Jethro[/quot

There is no point to miss but pix's being posted that could be very wrong with the comments being made.......... get your facts RIGHT FIRST,,,,,,

[jethro]

Big Pix Come and live in Sydney now.This is the new and old mish mash. These images and comments and labeling are from one persons point of view and observations! don't take it personally
Jethro

[gstark]

This is an open forum.......

Bernie,

No, it's not.

And, FWIW, the shots taken on Darlinghurst Rd will have been labelled reasonably accurately, given that prostitution and drugtaking are the two biggest industries along that particular half-mile.


Please, let's keep this on topic.

[mic]

Ding Ding !!

Aaaaannnnnnddddddddd in the Red corner we have bp & in the Blue corner Jethro.
Ghost can be the tarty girl holding up the rounds card in high heels & hot pants

[jethro]

Mic thats OT to a point. Only the stilletos that is
Jethro

[big pix]

This is an open forum.......

Bernie,

No, it's not.



Please, let's keep this on topic.

help me ...... what is the difference between an open forum and anyone who looks at, and joins dslrusers.net

[gstark]

This is an open forum.......

Bernie,

No, it's not.



Please, let's keep this on topic.

help me ...... what is the difference between an open forum and anyone who looks at, and joins dslrusers.net

Quite a bit. This is a private, not a public, forum.

I can ban and/or prevent anyone from entering here if I so wish. It's not something I like to do, but I can, and in the past, I have.

But again, please, let's stay on topic here. If you have an issue with the image, send me or one of the other mods a PM. Likewise if you feel the comments are offensive or a personal attack.

Beyond that, please permit the moderation team to deal with anything that might be contentious.

[big pix]

Big Pix Come and live in Sydney now.This is the new and old mish mash. These images and comments and labeling are from one persons point of view and observations! don't take it personally
Jethro

it would be a good idea if people lived in an area and got to know the people who lived there, before making a comment on an image shot in said area based on a reputation of the area. I lived in Sydney for over 50 years, some of this time was spent living in Kings Cross, does this make me a pimp, or a better person for understanding the needs of some of the people that live there, the man on the bench pix, have a look at how he is dressed,.......Edit: 70's hippy but well dressed for today

[bloop]

I like them, they're different, nothing I'd ever try though. Labelling is not as far off as some may think, though "Housing Commission" looks like a really nice block of apartments, meaning the residents are pretty damn lucky. The last pic, I dunno, girls dress real skimpy these days, I reckon there's a good chance she mightn't be a worker. Dig the junkie and pimp&worker shots.[/i]

[Spooky]

I have no problems with the photos, they are honest enough.

The labelling is a different matter. It is obviously an opinion and while the labelling may be accurate it may not. Having some experience with forums and legal action because of posters comments I think this is a pretty dangerous situtation for the moderators to allow.

Obviously this is the posters and Garys risk so not my problem, but I would hate to see the forum shut down because of an issue like this blowing up.

What if the guy in the shot is not as labelled but a local business man who happened to be waiting for a cab?

I'm not sure if it was me I would like to labelled like that and put up on the internet and I am betting most members would feel the same.

[ghost]

Very interesting bunch of replies.

I did warn that the images may offend some people. They are also REAL and a typical potrayal of life in this area at 2.00pm on a thursday afternoon.

I debated "labelling" these images but decided to do so incase some people did'nt get it. That was obviously the right choice as it seems to be the case here.

I observed these people for some time before photographing them. I can tell you that I am 99.9% sure that my "labels" are on the money. If you were there it was quite obvious. One of my best friends was a junkie (clean now for 3 years), I've seen him & others on the gear before. The image labelled "junkie" is an image of a man who was off his face on smack, if you wish to think otherwise that is your opinion and I have no problem with that.

I will not label images again and I am sorry if anyone is offended by these. They are street shots of Sydney's sadder side. Sometimes the truth hurts.

regards

ghost

[dooda]

They have a voyeuristic feel to them. I remember walking through an area in Chinatown and I was taking a picture of an alleyway I thought was empty. I was crouched down and I suddenly saw a fellow poke his head out from behind some bins and start shouting. Then I heard a woman start screaming and went running down the alleyway, assumedly calling for others. These two dudes ran after me and confronted me, one threw some hard plastic object at the wall right beside me that exploded with a bang. I wasn't so afraid of them except my camera was around my neck, beating them off me would have been awkward. I've never been so close to someone straddling the other side of life. They were young, close to my age but their face was sunken and their skin was dry of life. It was as if some vacuum was sucking the living from their flesh. I'll never forget it.

These pictures are safe. They don't challenge me at all, but are simply a representation of what we all see as we drive through these areas on the way to a restaurant or whatever. We generally say nothing, and assume everything. The one word titles feel like they're trying to contrive authenticity, when in fact we really don't know who they are. Junkie is a convenient term; it allows us to deal with the issue on a superficial basis. Worker is another convenient term, as if there was nothing more to the subject.

I was shooting two nights ago and a fellow came up to talk to me as he was interested in what I was doing. We chatted for about 30 minutes. He was living with his girlfriend for 7 years and she died one night of an infection to her brain. Then his school pulled his loan and his parents got divorced, and he lost his will to work in society and took to the street. He was out looking for a place to stay that night. I felt so bad, and helped him the best I could, but I was also really tempted to ignore him and hope that he left. But there's so much more of a story to the people that inhabit these places then a shot from a car window accompanied with the appropriate and assumed tag.

I don't mean to be too critical of you or the shot, these are just my thoughts on the matter. I read about photographic essays on prostitution in Vancouver and people that live in these down and out places, and wonder how on earth they get themselves in there.

[xerubus]

i like these shots ghost...

i think they may have even more impact if the last three were B&W...

cheers

[glass eye]

Hi guys;

By the way he isnt a pimp he is a daytime doorman and the real doormen come on at night and plus he would not be a scary guy.

the real dangerous ones in that area you never see until they come knocking on your door.TRUST ME I KNOW

[glass eye]

By the way half our teenagers are basically junkies anyway cause they are all taking pills that are full of smack.

Look at schoolies as reported on the news they are all buying pills up there just as much as alcohol.

John

[Killakoala]

I've been through KX many times at various times of day. Such is the life of working in Potts Pt.

I even went through KX (on a bus) on the afternoon in question and i agree that that is what it looked like on that day, although i never saw any of the people in the images. But as far as portraying what the place looks like it is accurate. I have no comment on the labels.

[ghost]

Hi All,

Just to clear the air.........I had no intention of exploiting any individual during the photographing of these images. It was an exercise in "street" photography to capture the seedier part of Sydney.

I acknowlege that these people have a past and for whatever reason they were led down a path that left them in thier demise I am sorry, sad and sympathetic. Thats why I took the photos. The subject matter here for all of the people captured tells a story that most of you and I have no idea about. That was the whole point of the exercise.

I can honestly say that the "junkie" was not a businessman waiting for a cab. He was a junkie who was off his face at the Cross like hundreds of other junkies doing the same thing at the time.

For those of you who decline to deal with reality thats fine, maybe you should choose not to comment. The rest of us know that this particular part of town runs on the sex & drug industry. It is the hub of Sydney for these activities.

I just took some photos of it.

ps Glass eye could be right about the doorman rather than pimp (maybe he's a pimp by night ). NOT Glass eye! The guy in the photo!!

I have'nt said this before but I was chased during the shoot by someone and had to make a speedy exit to avoid violence. That being said I'm up for more street shots of the area....stay tuned.

[dooda]

If you weren't looking for critical report on your pictures then I apologize for my rather long and drawn out diatribe. I don't think I have a problem with dealing with the issue, in fact I find it of great importance and volunteer every so often to help out.

I don't think that pictures taken from a car while driving through are an accurate reflection of reality, (and I'm not Australian so I'm no authority) it's at best a superficial summary of what any middle class person sees when they drive through these types of areas, and when we look from that relative safety we get a sort of perverse enjoyment out of simplifying them and their situation.

Reminds me of a friend of my dad's that used to visit us from small town Alberta. He grew up in the country and never had any exposure to it. When he came, he would have us take him to East Hastings and he would just sit and stare, perversely loving the exotic scene while enjoying the comfort of his own situations.

I don't think that anyone thought that you were intentionally exploiting anyone, though exploitation often isn't intentional. In a way I'm glad these got posted as it has caused me to reflect on the issue, and wonder about my own relative safety, and what I can and should do to help.

Again, it also gives me a newfound respect for photographers that actually are able to photograph these people in truly real ways.

[MattC]

Personally, I would have resisted the urge to label these images. I would have let them speak for themselves if there was actually a story to tell. Labelling may reduce the thought that goes into the image by the viewer and may just prejudice the viewer into looking at the image in a way that they may not have otherwise. I know that the "Junkie" did not strike me as being a junkie, and probably never would have except for the label. To me he is simply an old hippie enjoying a moment - I would have preferred to keep that idea in my head. The last shot "Worker" does not say worker to me. She could be anybody - has anyone noticed how a lot of young women dress these days.

Some here know how much I dislike labels being put on people. If these images were published in such a way that the public at large was viewing them, complete with labels, they could be viewed as degrading to the subject (by the subject). This goes against my own ethical standard. It is one thing to do a documentary of street life in an artistic way, quite another to take photos and add inflammatory, prejudicial or otherwise damaging comments. I see nothing artistic in these shots.

As to the manner in which these shots were taken... well, it gives new meaning to the term "drive by shooting". My thoughts... get out and walk! Interact with people where necessary. If someone objects, note their objection and walk away. If it looks like you are going to get thumped, then I might suggest that what you are doing, or the manner in which you are doing it needs to be re-evaluated.

Someone mentioned the word voyeuristic… I also question the ethics of the photographer.

“Warning, images may offend some viewers”. I am not offended… just pissed that people think that they can drive around with cameras and do whatever they damned well please. Show some consideration for your "victim".

I am glad Bob isn't around; this thread probably would have exploded!

Matt

Edited to clear up a misunderstanding.

[Catcha]

I agree maybe Labelling was not the best choice. But I have also see this sort of images while down in sydney years ago when I visited Kings cross in the day time and night.


Give ghost a break, he may have offended people on this forum, but whats done is done. I have certainly learnt something from this and i'm sure he has also and other members for that matter.

[dooda]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I was offended, but the images are sensitive images and are bound to create very different responses. I assumed that in posting them here he knew that he wasn't going to get a slew of "neato, great shot" etc.

Someone mentioned the word voyeuristic… I question the ethics of the author

Are you referring to me, and questioning my ethics, or the ethics of the photographer? If someone gets the feeling that the pictures are voyeuristic, why would their ethics come into question?

[MattC]

Sorry Dooda, that was poorly worded. I was saying that the images were both voyeuristic and ethically challenged.

Cheers

[ghost]

Matt, have you read this thread before posting?

I have already said no more labels........although in saying that you are one of these people who wishes to believe the junkie is a 70's hippie lost in time. WRONG, he has injected herion into his bloodsteam and is sitting on a seat totally off his face. As I said before, I observed these people before taking the photos. I saw him in two different locations on the day, and no, he was not waiting for a bus, and no he was not a local business man, and no he was not a 70's hippie having a peaceful moment he was a JUNKIE.

The public at large are not viewing these images, as Gary said this is a private not public forum.

Getting out and walking through Kings Cross with a dslr and lens slung around you neck is an extremely stupid suggestion. It actually reflects how little you must know of the area.

Lets just all turn a blind eye and believe that junkies are in fact old hippies, and hookers are actually nice girls dressed scantily walking down the street politely talking to men through car windows. And when they jump in the car its because they know the man as a friend and he's giving them a lift.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE

[ghost]

OK you've broken me. From now on I'll only be posting images of flowers and fluffy toys............NOT!

[dooda]

No prob Matt.

Ghost, you seem to be missing the point. It doesn't seem like anyone wants pictures of fluff instead, nor do they want to pretend like prostitution and drug abuse don't exist. I think the argument is that your particular documentation of it is weak. If I've put words in other's mouths, I apologize, but that's what I interpret the general feeling from the people who don't agree with you (or maybe it's only my own). Correct me if I'm wrong.

And there are people who are able to get in and communicate with these people, documenting them with SLR cameras, but I think it must take lots of time and tact.

[Jonesy]

I just found these as a bit of an eye opener......

Sorry Just a small country boy here who doesn't get to city much (the city being Adelaide!) I spent about 20mins at the Sydeny airport back in May but thats as close as I got! So I'm a little oblivious to this way of life

geez it sounds like I should be getting in my "pickup truck"... bloody country yocal

[glass eye]

Hi again ghost,

The shots didnt offend me but some people will look at the tv for example with the terrorists on it and still stand up for them denying that they are actually terrorists,i guess its political correctness.

Now most are thanking Johnny Howard.

2 years ago a junkie aboriginal from that area bashed a mate of mine in Manly cause he was trying to break up a fight.My mates head is now full of titanium he lost a years work and the government offered him 15 grand compo.he being the good aussie said dont bother to the compo.the aboriginal got 6 months gaol.

There is political correctness for you and JOhn Laws even spoke to me about it as well followed directly by John Brogden.

take it easy

[dooda]

So the political correctness is that he only got 6 months of jail time? Sounds more like a justice system problem.

[ghost]

Thanks glass eye. I believe there is a certain level of political correctness here on this forum but thats OK, it takes all types. The world would be a boring place if we all saw things the same way.

Dooda I'm not really missing the point, I can understand where people are coming from (some of them going a bit over the top though ).

But I am totally over people telling me that the junkie was just an old hippy and the hooker was just a scantily clad young woman.

So people..... I have nothing more to say on this thread. Like them or loath them I don't care. To those who wish to bathe in their sea of denial blissfully unaware of the real world around them, good luck to you.
To all the others, good luck to you too.

Gary if your out there it maybe time to lock or close this thread.

kudos to all

ghost

[MCWB]

Quite a bit. This is a private, not a public, forum.

In that it's possible to prevent people posting, yes, it's slightly private. However given that anyone can read anything that's been posted and that all the pages are indexed (and accessible) by Google, I'd say any comments posted on this board are indeed very much public. Sorry for the OT, I love the shots!

[dooda]

Sorry if I got tedious. I thought it was a worthwhile discussion, and an interesting topic. FWIW, I don't think anyone was in denial, just more of the opinion that it was poor taste.

[Matt. K]

ghost
The lady in image number 3 could be an undercover cop or a barrister. You have to be bloody careful when you post images of members of the public and insinuate the folk in them are pimps and prostitutes...because if they are not...and they see your thread..[b]LITIGATION, LITIGATION, LITIGATION.[b]

Having said that...the images are very good quality and thanks for posting them.

[petermmc]

Dear viewers,

I've just caught up with this thread and am amazed at the emotions that it has evoked. Being a late viewer and not having seen the photo labels/comments, it is clear that the labels must have caused most of this emotion as the actual photos are, in my humble middle class opinion, not bad. Not brilliant either. A few comments on cropping and contrast may have been useful to the photographer.

Comments about the 'morality' of taking photos from cars baffle me. It is almost the same as saying "dont use a zoom and just use a 20mm so you have to talk to the subject" ...photojournalists dont always talk to their subjects. You don't have to get to know people to take their photos. Granted, in some situations you should get their permission. I assume a drive by photo of a smiling clown or a bridge that has just fallen down is also out of the question because of the location of the cameraperson....ah!!!!!!!

I think it has been a bit harsh on Ghost who, I think is a relative new comer to the forum. I think we should encourage better photography. Perhaps fewer comments on the actual photos so that the photos themselves do the talking. Ghost himself admitted this. Perhaps more encouragement mixed with better photographic advice would help. We still need to push the boundaries a little or we are in danger of become ever so boring.

Back to the photos. I think that now the comments are gone, it is hard to follow the story, context and sequence of the pictures. I think more and varied images are needed here to tell a better story.

All the best.

Peter Mc

[gstark]

Quite a bit. This is a private, not a public, forum.

In that it's possible to prevent people posting, yes, it's slightly private. However given that anyone can read anything that's been posted

Trent,

Again, not so.

I can lock ouit any IP or range of IPs, and for many, if not most, sections, you need to have a valid ID to even see them; (obedient) bots are prevented from accessing pages here as well.

SO I do have quite a bit of control, and if I want, I can exercise even more.

Ghost ...

You're being very defensive here, when nobody is really attacking you. Please, don't take the comments being offered so personally; they're talking about the iages, and the presentation. That's a criticism that you can accept, or reject, but arguing about it isn't going to achieve a damn thing.